Showing posts with label Witnessing to JW's. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Witnessing to JW's. Show all posts
4.11.2007
JW Meeting 3
Deena and Gail came today. At one point they were getting up to leave but then decided to stay. I wish I could remember everything but my brain is so fried. Coffee on an empty stomach is no good. =P So basically I showed them photocopied of a bunch of Watchtower publications that talk about how the Watchtower is God's authority on earth and you need to believe everything they say (if you want these quotes I can email them) and then all these publications that condradict each other (Jesus is Abaddon & Satan is Abaddon, Rev 22:12 is Jesus speaking & is Jehovah speaking, vaccinations are sinful, then not, etc). So they basically said well those are old and it's fine that they change their position because it's based on Bible reading that they change it. So I said okay I just want to establish that the organization is not infallible and you can't believe everything they have told you in the past and it isn't reasonable to believe everything they are saying today is the truth. So they agreed. We talked about disfellowshipping and they said they only get disfellowshipped for things on the list in 1 Cor 6, not for disagreeing with the publications (although they admitted they didn't know for sure if they would be disfellowshipped for not agreeing with specific things in the publications). They still claim the Bible is their authority, not the Watchtower Society. Gail is really neat and she understood the logic I presented about the claims of the society and kind of explained it to Deena. That was nice. =P They tried to say the society wasn't saying what it was saying about listening to it above the Bible but then ended up saying well that was a long time ago. Anyway so we have some things we are going to talk about when they come in two weeks. I'm busy next week. But I think it's going to be really good and I am glad that Gail is coming back. She even suggested we write all this stuff down for each other, which is way cool because my brain threatens to shut down when I have Emily peeing her bed and then the Pack N Play (even though I put a diaper on her - she took it off and peed) and Lainey needing to nurse and then waking uip early from her nap and this and that and aaah! And I will be looking something up and while I'm trying to look it up, they feel the need to keep talking and we end up somewhere else and I can't have 10 things going on in my brain at once anymore. Eeeek! So I am SUPER glad to be writing things down even though it means more time I have to spend doing such things..... =P I did point out to them that their response to Thomas' saying "My Lord and my God!" agreed with me and then concluded otherwise but we didn't talk about it. And that their explanation of Jesus saying "I will raise it in three days" doesn't line up with the rest of the book of John. Anyway I think I'm just going to chill with my baby-girl for now. Sorry there wasn't anything super-exciting this week, but I was trying to establish that the Watchtower is their authority and not the Bible. I don't think they see that but they are saying the Watchtower Society is different now. I don't really get how they can think it's the only true church but whatever....Anyway I shared some of my testimony with them. They were kind of like yeah that's right! But I don't know what they thought. I just don't get them...
4.06.2007
Dresses, JW's, & Weekend!
It's the weekend!!! Yay!!! =)
I got fabric today to make Em an Easter dress. Lainey will wear the dress Em wore to Harper's graduation. =) I have the fabric mostly cut for Em's dress and I'll put it together tonight, I think.
I have been thinking about the JW thing. If I point out the problems with their printout arguments and they still don't see it, they're not going to see it no matter how much I talk to them. I am not reading anything else I have of theirs. I have read enough to know it doesn't add up and I have got them completely contradicting themselves. It makes me physically ill to read their stuff and last night I felt so sick I actually made myself throw up and went to bed. I'm not sure if I'm going to point out the stuff about their answers (I don't think they even read the printouts, so that's the only reason I'd consider it) but I'm going to share my testimony with them next time they come. I don't expect them to care or believe or do anything but run away thinking I'm in bondage to Satan. But maybe God will use it somewhere down the line and I don't think he would have asked me to spend time talking to them at all in the first place if he wasn't going to make them wonder about who Jesus really was. All that said, I don't feel led to keep spending time with them. I'm wiping the dust off my feet. ::wipe, wipe, wipe::
So what else? =) I got some cute fabrics today to make more Pack N Play sheets. That way I will (a) have more than one sheet and (b) have something other than pink monkeys for Samuel to sleep on when he comes over (lol!). He's a cutie. He wouldn't put a pink bib on when they were over last week. =)
Tonight Em said "I like your shoulders!" and patted me on the shoulder. I said "Oh, really? I like your shoulders too!" She said "I don't have any." lol! Sometimes she says the most hilarious random things.
Yesterday Em was pretending her baby doll lied to her about peepeeing in the stroller at the scrapbooking store. lol And pretending her baby doll peed on the floor and didn't tell her she had to go. =P It totally cracks me up.
Today I think Lainey pulled herself up on the bottom stair, but I didn't witness it and Em was the one that announced it, so she may have "helped." She said she didn't, but she may have thought she would be in trouble for it because usually we tell her not to pick Lainey up. =P
Well I still have 3 jammie tops to hem and make casings in the neck and sleeves for elastic. And Em's dress and also Ashley's quilt. I still need to rip out that seam. =\ And Harp wants me to finish the edge of some velvet for around the edges of our projector screen. And I have a scrapbook page laid out that I desperately want to put together and embellish. But that may just have to wait a bit. Okay gonna get workin'! Blog ya later!
I got fabric today to make Em an Easter dress. Lainey will wear the dress Em wore to Harper's graduation. =) I have the fabric mostly cut for Em's dress and I'll put it together tonight, I think.
I have been thinking about the JW thing. If I point out the problems with their printout arguments and they still don't see it, they're not going to see it no matter how much I talk to them. I am not reading anything else I have of theirs. I have read enough to know it doesn't add up and I have got them completely contradicting themselves. It makes me physically ill to read their stuff and last night I felt so sick I actually made myself throw up and went to bed. I'm not sure if I'm going to point out the stuff about their answers (I don't think they even read the printouts, so that's the only reason I'd consider it) but I'm going to share my testimony with them next time they come. I don't expect them to care or believe or do anything but run away thinking I'm in bondage to Satan. But maybe God will use it somewhere down the line and I don't think he would have asked me to spend time talking to them at all in the first place if he wasn't going to make them wonder about who Jesus really was. All that said, I don't feel led to keep spending time with them. I'm wiping the dust off my feet. ::wipe, wipe, wipe::
So what else? =) I got some cute fabrics today to make more Pack N Play sheets. That way I will (a) have more than one sheet and (b) have something other than pink monkeys for Samuel to sleep on when he comes over (lol!). He's a cutie. He wouldn't put a pink bib on when they were over last week. =)
Tonight Em said "I like your shoulders!" and patted me on the shoulder. I said "Oh, really? I like your shoulders too!" She said "I don't have any." lol! Sometimes she says the most hilarious random things.
Yesterday Em was pretending her baby doll lied to her about peepeeing in the stroller at the scrapbooking store. lol And pretending her baby doll peed on the floor and didn't tell her she had to go. =P It totally cracks me up.
Today I think Lainey pulled herself up on the bottom stair, but I didn't witness it and Em was the one that announced it, so she may have "helped." She said she didn't, but she may have thought she would be in trouble for it because usually we tell her not to pick Lainey up. =P
Well I still have 3 jammie tops to hem and make casings in the neck and sleeves for elastic. And Em's dress and also Ashley's quilt. I still need to rip out that seam. =\ And Harp wants me to finish the edge of some velvet for around the edges of our projector screen. And I have a scrapbook page laid out that I desperately want to put together and embellish. But that may just have to wait a bit. Okay gonna get workin'! Blog ya later!
4.05.2007
Assortment
Yesterday, Emily told me 'pin' began with the letter P! That's the first time she has said something like that. She points out letters all the time and usually what sound they make but it's the first time she recognized the first letter of a word and told me. Very cute!
I'm just going to ask the JW's why, if Jesus wasn't talking about his body, John's explanation of what Jesus said was that he was speaking of his body. I don't even know what else to say about that. Maybe I will even point out that they had to come up with this thing that contradicts John because they started with the assumption that the Trinity is false. I'm tired of thinking about it.
We're going to watch The End of the Spear. Harp found it at the library. =)
We went back to a garage sale I went to earlier today that had tons of tools. I thought Harp might want the drill press. We got there and saw that they had all sorts of stuff I hadn't noticed, including a jigsaw. I am so excited to have one now. And they had tons of motors that Harp wanted but didn't know what he would do with them... So he didn't get them but he might go back this weekend. =) He also got a vise that was really nice. All the tools were high quality.
I got to scrapbook a little bit tonight here and there and I did a little bit after I blogged earlier, too. I never did finish the laundry even though I did most of it last night! I need to go put the last load in the dryer and then it's movie time. =)
I'm just going to ask the JW's why, if Jesus wasn't talking about his body, John's explanation of what Jesus said was that he was speaking of his body. I don't even know what else to say about that. Maybe I will even point out that they had to come up with this thing that contradicts John because they started with the assumption that the Trinity is false. I'm tired of thinking about it.
We're going to watch The End of the Spear. Harp found it at the library. =)
We went back to a garage sale I went to earlier today that had tons of tools. I thought Harp might want the drill press. We got there and saw that they had all sorts of stuff I hadn't noticed, including a jigsaw. I am so excited to have one now. And they had tons of motors that Harp wanted but didn't know what he would do with them... So he didn't get them but he might go back this weekend. =) He also got a vise that was really nice. All the tools were high quality.
I got to scrapbook a little bit tonight here and there and I did a little bit after I blogged earlier, too. I never did finish the laundry even though I did most of it last night! I need to go put the last load in the dryer and then it's movie time. =)
Oh So Crazy
I just dug through the one about Thomas and looked up all the Greek and Scripture references. This thing was poorly written, I tell ya what. There is one place that it quotes something in Greek but doesn't even say where from or what their point is about it! The whole point of the people they were quoting in their "answer" was to say that this was vocative (talking about The God) and definitely not an exclamation (which would have been blasphemy anyway and Jesus would have corrected that) because the same words are used of God in Revelation 4:11. Which is exactly right and exactly what I'm saying and they're denying!
So they say all this in a very confusing way and then say "So, since the use of the definite article was made before the form of address to anybody..." - Not at all what the people quoted were saying! - "...Thomas' use of the definite article does not force his use of God to mean The God, Jehovah." Say what?? That's exactly what they were saying. How do I argue with this? It is utter stupidity. Let's see if I can think of an example involving the zoo. Boy I am on a rant.
"The zoo is where animals are. It's most definitely not a cemetery because of A, B, & C."
So, since animals are found places other than zoos (and in our case we haven't even established this) this doesn't mean there are animals in the zoo. That is absurd (yes they said absurd) and we can rightly conclude that the zoo must be a cemetery.
Have I said I'm not having fun? It's not about me. It's not about me. It's not about me. Tell me this again. It's not about me.
So they say all this in a very confusing way and then say "So, since the use of the definite article was made before the form of address to anybody..." - Not at all what the people quoted were saying! - "...Thomas' use of the definite article does not force his use of God to mean The God, Jehovah." Say what?? That's exactly what they were saying. How do I argue with this? It is utter stupidity. Let's see if I can think of an example involving the zoo. Boy I am on a rant.
"The zoo is where animals are. It's most definitely not a cemetery because of A, B, & C."
So, since animals are found places other than zoos (and in our case we haven't even established this) this doesn't mean there are animals in the zoo. That is absurd (yes they said absurd) and we can rightly conclude that the zoo must be a cemetery.
Have I said I'm not having fun? It's not about me. It's not about me. It's not about me. Tell me this again. It's not about me.
Memory & Dying
We went to the grocery store this morning. Stopped at two garage sales and got three Memory games for $1.50. I don't know if Em will understand the game, but she will at least have fun with the little cards.
After we had lunch, Deena stopped by with another woman, Gail. They brought me these printouts that have "answers" for the questions about Thomas and Jesus raising himself and other things. I did not at all want to go through them. I did most of the laundry last night so I could have a chillin' out, scrapbookin' time while the girls napped today. I read their stuff and some of it is just so silly (like Jesus didn't really mean HE would be the one raising himself because the Bible says God raised him - instead he meant that when God raised him, it would come about that the body of believers would be built up into a temple of God and he was the cornerstone) that I don't even know what to say to them anymore. Come on! They have to twist it into something weird anytime they are confronted with the deity of Christ. They said that Thomas was saying Jesus was a god, not The God, even though there is an article in Greek. Their "explanation" as to why didn't make sense to me. Probably because it doesn't make sense. But I will read it again later and see if I can figure out what they are thinking. I really don't see the point in trying to argue with complete silliness. I'm dying to self, here, people. Not enjoying it in the least.
After we had lunch, Deena stopped by with another woman, Gail. They brought me these printouts that have "answers" for the questions about Thomas and Jesus raising himself and other things. I did not at all want to go through them. I did most of the laundry last night so I could have a chillin' out, scrapbookin' time while the girls napped today. I read their stuff and some of it is just so silly (like Jesus didn't really mean HE would be the one raising himself because the Bible says God raised him - instead he meant that when God raised him, it would come about that the body of believers would be built up into a temple of God and he was the cornerstone) that I don't even know what to say to them anymore. Come on! They have to twist it into something weird anytime they are confronted with the deity of Christ. They said that Thomas was saying Jesus was a god, not The God, even though there is an article in Greek. Their "explanation" as to why didn't make sense to me. Probably because it doesn't make sense. But I will read it again later and see if I can figure out what they are thinking. I really don't see the point in trying to argue with complete silliness. I'm dying to self, here, people. Not enjoying it in the least.
4.04.2007
Stuffy Stuffy... Stuff Stuff!
Okay the title is dumb but I was thinking of the Stuff Mart song from a VeggieTale.
This morning we went to Toys R Us. I don't know if I have ever taken Emily in there, but she was a very good girl and didn't touch stuff. I was thoroughly impressed. Especially after how desperately she wanted Kendra's toys and the baby doll. =) We were looking for one of those suction cup bathtub things for Lainey, but they said they were recalled. They were sold and recalled and then sold again and recalled again. Bummer. I will have to check eBay. Janet used one of those to stick her babies on the counter while she was cooking so they wouldn't fall off. I thought that was a really good idea. Lainey almost always cries for me when I cook and I think she would chill out a lot if she could just be closer to me.
We picked my wedding dress up at David's Bridal. I don't remember if I even blogged about that, but I was trying to get my dress cleaned so my dad can take pictures of me in it for his website. He is doing wedding photography and just spent a week and a half in Vegas at a professional wedding photographers' conference. So he learned all sorts of cool things that hopefully he can teach me. =) Anyway dry cleaning places said the beads would probably melt and would probably fall off. Eek! So David's said they could spot clean it and make it a little better but not get it all out (there's some black at the bottom, mostly on the under side but some on the train because it touched the floor when it was bustled). They ended up not even trying because they showed it to the woman in charge of cleaning and she said it wouldn't work, but I could try just using laundry soap and rubbing it to get it out. They refunded the money.
Anyway I sewed some today. I worked on Ashley's quilt until I got to the part I need to rip out (I was dumb and sewed the wrong side together after I put two rows together) and then I traced a pattern for Em's jammie shirts. I made her 3 pairs of jammie shorts the other day.
We had these super-yummy turkey burgers for dinner tonight. They are from the Rachael Ray magazine I got. Ohhh, delicious. What is the thing Clint says? It makes you want to swallow your tongue? Well whatever that expression is that Clint always says - that's what I think about these burgers. =)
Oh! This morning, there was a yellow button in Lainey's diaper!!! ::Gasp!!:: The other day, Harp and I heard her kind of gag and we turned to her really quickly but she stopped. I figured she ate a little dust bunny or something because I didn't see anything else around. I guess it's possible that it got in the diaper another way (her poo isn't solid or anything and it sure looked like a new button) but it's also entirely possible that she swallowed it. Eeek!
I also think Lainey pulled up on me today on the couch, but I was spaced out enough that I thought hmm, I sat her down and I really don't remember pulling her up, but I can't be sure. =P
The meeting with the Jehovah's Witnesses was honestly really frustrating today. They didn't give me any answers to the questions I asked last week and they didn't answer my questions this week and yet they are frustrated with me for not agreeing with them. I really got the sense from Deena that she was exasperated that I asked about Jesus being a true or false God again. They ought to be willing to either answer questions or admit that they don't have the answer based on their theology. I know, I know, they are totally blinded. But it still is frustrating. The whole thing about them saying the temple must not have been Jesus' body is just so ridiculous that it hurts. I hope they have realized that if you believe the Scriptures, the Trinity is a logical doctrine that follows the teachings of Scripture and it also provides answers for all these questions that they don't have answers to.
Gonna go talk to my dad 'cause he's calling my cell phone. =)
This morning we went to Toys R Us. I don't know if I have ever taken Emily in there, but she was a very good girl and didn't touch stuff. I was thoroughly impressed. Especially after how desperately she wanted Kendra's toys and the baby doll. =) We were looking for one of those suction cup bathtub things for Lainey, but they said they were recalled. They were sold and recalled and then sold again and recalled again. Bummer. I will have to check eBay. Janet used one of those to stick her babies on the counter while she was cooking so they wouldn't fall off. I thought that was a really good idea. Lainey almost always cries for me when I cook and I think she would chill out a lot if she could just be closer to me.
We picked my wedding dress up at David's Bridal. I don't remember if I even blogged about that, but I was trying to get my dress cleaned so my dad can take pictures of me in it for his website. He is doing wedding photography and just spent a week and a half in Vegas at a professional wedding photographers' conference. So he learned all sorts of cool things that hopefully he can teach me. =) Anyway dry cleaning places said the beads would probably melt and would probably fall off. Eek! So David's said they could spot clean it and make it a little better but not get it all out (there's some black at the bottom, mostly on the under side but some on the train because it touched the floor when it was bustled). They ended up not even trying because they showed it to the woman in charge of cleaning and she said it wouldn't work, but I could try just using laundry soap and rubbing it to get it out. They refunded the money.
Anyway I sewed some today. I worked on Ashley's quilt until I got to the part I need to rip out (I was dumb and sewed the wrong side together after I put two rows together) and then I traced a pattern for Em's jammie shirts. I made her 3 pairs of jammie shorts the other day.
We had these super-yummy turkey burgers for dinner tonight. They are from the Rachael Ray magazine I got. Ohhh, delicious. What is the thing Clint says? It makes you want to swallow your tongue? Well whatever that expression is that Clint always says - that's what I think about these burgers. =)
Oh! This morning, there was a yellow button in Lainey's diaper!!! ::Gasp!!:: The other day, Harp and I heard her kind of gag and we turned to her really quickly but she stopped. I figured she ate a little dust bunny or something because I didn't see anything else around. I guess it's possible that it got in the diaper another way (her poo isn't solid or anything and it sure looked like a new button) but it's also entirely possible that she swallowed it. Eeek!
I also think Lainey pulled up on me today on the couch, but I was spaced out enough that I thought hmm, I sat her down and I really don't remember pulling her up, but I can't be sure. =P
The meeting with the Jehovah's Witnesses was honestly really frustrating today. They didn't give me any answers to the questions I asked last week and they didn't answer my questions this week and yet they are frustrated with me for not agreeing with them. I really got the sense from Deena that she was exasperated that I asked about Jesus being a true or false God again. They ought to be willing to either answer questions or admit that they don't have the answer based on their theology. I know, I know, they are totally blinded. But it still is frustrating. The whole thing about them saying the temple must not have been Jesus' body is just so ridiculous that it hurts. I hope they have realized that if you believe the Scriptures, the Trinity is a logical doctrine that follows the teachings of Scripture and it also provides answers for all these questions that they don't have answers to.
Gonna go talk to my dad 'cause he's calling my cell phone. =)
JW Meeting 2 Details
Well this meeting went well again, I suppose. But I think it's going to be the last one. Today was much more intense than last week. Nina was tired, so she didn't come. I suspect it was that Nina said some things last time that got them cornered. Just about all the other lesser gods being false gods, which would imply that Jesus is a false god. Maybe she really was just tired, though. =)
Kathy came instead and I can tell that she is not being trained, like Nina was. =) She started out spending forever (which kind of frustrated me, but I went along with it 'cause what do you do?) talking about Adam and the fall and how we needed a perfect HUMAN sacrifice to pay for sin. Don't ask how that took 15 minutes - I don't even remember but it did. I said yes, I totally agree! And that's what Jesus did. They agreed. But they concluded that because Jesus was a human sacrifice, he wasn't God in the flesh. I said that doesn't follow. Nothing there disproves that Jesus was God. I said in fact, it shows that he must be God because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We all have inherited a sin nature from Adam. But they said Jesus was conceived by God (didn't point out there the Holy Spirit's involvement because that wasn't the topic but I hoped to go there!), so he didn't have Adam's sin nature. I said exactly! Only God could live a perfect, sinless life on earth. And they kept saying how Job came close and he probably could have done it if he hadn't had Adam's sin nature. I said yeah but he did so he sinned and he couldn't be the perfect sacrifice. This whole conversation basically went nowhere, as you can tell. What a waste of time! Anyway their thing was that if Jesus had been God, wouldn't Satan have been calling "Foul!!" and saying that's not fair because he is God. I said do you think I'm denying that Jesus was a human and had flesh and blood? Because I'm not. I believe that he was the perfect human sacrifice because all the fullness of God dwelled in him. I said I bet Satan was upset that Jesus came. He knew who Jesus was and he knew it was going to mean the end of him. They asked why he would tempt Jesus if he knew he was God in the flesh. I said because that's what he does! He tempts, he accuses - that's what he does! (Now that I think about it, I should have pointed out that he also thought he could be like God in the beginning and he already knew he was a created angel. He was still trying to thwart God's plan!) I think that's where that conversation ended.
What else? She didn't remember what she was looking up in Zechariah so she didn't (how my version says they pierced Me and hers says the one I'm sending or something...), but while she was here, she looked at something in her JW Bible said that the Septuagint and Vulgate differed on that. I don't know and I also don't know what is says in Hebrew. I didn't waste my time on that because there are enough other verses to demonstrate the Trinity and neither of us knows Hebrew.
Didn't talk at all about Thomas!!! Argh, that was a big deal last time - they totally contradicted themselves and said they'd have to read about it and then we never talked about it!
They asked me if Jesus was part of God, then when Jesus died, part of God died and how could God raise Jesus up if part of him was dead? I didn't get to talk about what happened to Jesus after his physical death, but I didn't need to. I said "Well, the Scriptures even say that Jesus raised himself from the dead. How does a dead man raise himself if he isn't God?" They looked at me funny and asked where it said that. I said Jesus says "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again!" They said no I think he says "it will be raised again." I said okay let's look it up! So we did. It says - even in their version - even in their Kingdom Greek interlinear Bible (what a joke) - "I will raise it up again!" Kathy read it aloud at least 5 times, just totally stunned. Deena kept trying to talk to me (and I did talk to her, but kept bringing the subject back to this) and Kathy was SILENT for 15-20 minutes just looking at that passage and trying to figure out what in the world it could mean if not that Jesus was going to raise himself up from the dead. I finally asked her what she made of it and she said "This temple can't mean Jesus' body." I asked if she thought it was the literal temple, because that's where they were, and if it had been a false prophecy that Jesus was going to destroy the literal temple and then rebuild it in three days. She said no, I don't. It even says right here that it's not the literal temple. I said right and it says in the very next verse that Jesus was speaking of his body. I wish I could know what they were thinking at this point. Deena looked up in her interlinear the word temple and said it could mean palace or holy dwelling place. I said the issue isn't what the word temple means. I read the passage using "holy dwelling place" instead of temple to point out that it still said it was talking about Jesus' body. She still thought it wasn't Jesus' body. I said again that the temple wasn't the issue and even if the word temple meant "the zoo" the next verse would be saying "the zoo he was speaking of was his body." I don't know if they were scared or mad or frustrated or really completely blinded to this fact, but I got nowhere with them on that. And I think that's why they aren't coming back.
Denna said something about how the Scriptures say GOD will raise Jesus and I said absolutely and that's one of the reasons that I believe Jesus was God. And I also mentioned that in Romans 1:4, there's indication that the Holy Spirit was involved in the resurrection as well. Kathy looked that up and was kind of defensive telling me that verse does not say that the Holy Spirit is God. I said that's not what I was pointing out, just that the verse says the Holy Spirit was also involved in the resurrection.
We talked for a bit about the Holy Spirit because they said something about it being God's active force and not a person and not God. I said you can lie to the Spirit and it's equated with lying to God (Ananias and Sapphira - Acts 5) and that our body is called a temple of God (1 Cor 3:16) and a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19). And how would that make sense if the Holy Spirit isn't part of the Godhead? They responded with the passage about the body of believers being built up into a temple of God. That doesn't even have anything to do with it! So I said yes, so the body of believers is called a temple of God, our individual bodies are called a temple of God, and our individual bodies are called a temple of the Holy Spirit. So how do you reconcile individual bodies being called the temple of God and also of the Holy Spirit? They didn't have an answer. I also pointed out that you can grieve the Holy Spirit and asked how you can grieve a force. Kathe said "Yeah, I'd heard of grieving the Spirit, but not [something else I pointed out but don't remember what, but then we looked it up and saw it was true]." But then she never did answer the question.
They did the thing I was anticipating about the word one being in the neuter where Jesus prays that we may be one... They say that because in the context there it is talking about unity (I said it's about relationship, but unity would be a part of that, yes) that anywhere the word one is used in the neuter it's talking about unity. I tell ya what I got so frustrated trying to explain to them that gender has to do with the gender of a word and not a person. They said when it talks about one in reference to God it uses the masculine. And I said I know - theos is a masculine word. They said well here they didn't use masculine. I was sooo frustrated. That's because it wasn't used in the same way! Grammatically, "one God" is different than "I and the Father are one." I should have explained that one was modifying God in the first case and it was not modifying anything in the second case. I was just so frustrated that I guess I wasn't thinking clearly enough to explain it well. I wish I could go back and explain it. =(
Anyway they had a list of things they were going to look into again, but when they left (Kathy had to go at 2:45 for something) I asked Deena "Same time next week?" And she said "We'll try." Well, I'm pretty sure that means no. =\
I know that salvation is for God alone and I don't need to worry about making them see the truth. At the same time, I desperately want their eyes to be opened! I have cried knowing that they are going to be SO surprised when they find out the truth and that they didn't believe it. I suppose the good is that it spurs me on to pray for them and that is the only thing I can really do with any real effect.
I called our pastor Jeff and talked to him for an hour after they left (thank you so much, Jeff!) about stuff we talked about today and some other random things...
Sorry this is a really long email again. I probably didn't even mention everything we talked about but you can at least know about some of it. I think I mentioned all the big stuff. =P Gonna post it to the blog again, too. Thank you all for emailing me back. I loved getting tons of email. =) =) You can email me again if you want, lol. =)
Love Katie
Kathy came instead and I can tell that she is not being trained, like Nina was. =) She started out spending forever (which kind of frustrated me, but I went along with it 'cause what do you do?) talking about Adam and the fall and how we needed a perfect HUMAN sacrifice to pay for sin. Don't ask how that took 15 minutes - I don't even remember but it did. I said yes, I totally agree! And that's what Jesus did. They agreed. But they concluded that because Jesus was a human sacrifice, he wasn't God in the flesh. I said that doesn't follow. Nothing there disproves that Jesus was God. I said in fact, it shows that he must be God because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We all have inherited a sin nature from Adam. But they said Jesus was conceived by God (didn't point out there the Holy Spirit's involvement because that wasn't the topic but I hoped to go there!), so he didn't have Adam's sin nature. I said exactly! Only God could live a perfect, sinless life on earth. And they kept saying how Job came close and he probably could have done it if he hadn't had Adam's sin nature. I said yeah but he did so he sinned and he couldn't be the perfect sacrifice. This whole conversation basically went nowhere, as you can tell. What a waste of time! Anyway their thing was that if Jesus had been God, wouldn't Satan have been calling "Foul!!" and saying that's not fair because he is God. I said do you think I'm denying that Jesus was a human and had flesh and blood? Because I'm not. I believe that he was the perfect human sacrifice because all the fullness of God dwelled in him. I said I bet Satan was upset that Jesus came. He knew who Jesus was and he knew it was going to mean the end of him. They asked why he would tempt Jesus if he knew he was God in the flesh. I said because that's what he does! He tempts, he accuses - that's what he does! (Now that I think about it, I should have pointed out that he also thought he could be like God in the beginning and he already knew he was a created angel. He was still trying to thwart God's plan!) I think that's where that conversation ended.
What else? She didn't remember what she was looking up in Zechariah so she didn't (how my version says they pierced Me and hers says the one I'm sending or something...), but while she was here, she looked at something in her JW Bible said that the Septuagint and Vulgate differed on that. I don't know and I also don't know what is says in Hebrew. I didn't waste my time on that because there are enough other verses to demonstrate the Trinity and neither of us knows Hebrew.
Didn't talk at all about Thomas!!! Argh, that was a big deal last time - they totally contradicted themselves and said they'd have to read about it and then we never talked about it!
They asked me if Jesus was part of God, then when Jesus died, part of God died and how could God raise Jesus up if part of him was dead? I didn't get to talk about what happened to Jesus after his physical death, but I didn't need to. I said "Well, the Scriptures even say that Jesus raised himself from the dead. How does a dead man raise himself if he isn't God?" They looked at me funny and asked where it said that. I said Jesus says "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again!" They said no I think he says "it will be raised again." I said okay let's look it up! So we did. It says - even in their version - even in their Kingdom Greek interlinear Bible (what a joke) - "I will raise it up again!" Kathy read it aloud at least 5 times, just totally stunned. Deena kept trying to talk to me (and I did talk to her, but kept bringing the subject back to this) and Kathy was SILENT for 15-20 minutes just looking at that passage and trying to figure out what in the world it could mean if not that Jesus was going to raise himself up from the dead. I finally asked her what she made of it and she said "This temple can't mean Jesus' body." I asked if she thought it was the literal temple, because that's where they were, and if it had been a false prophecy that Jesus was going to destroy the literal temple and then rebuild it in three days. She said no, I don't. It even says right here that it's not the literal temple. I said right and it says in the very next verse that Jesus was speaking of his body. I wish I could know what they were thinking at this point. Deena looked up in her interlinear the word temple and said it could mean palace or holy dwelling place. I said the issue isn't what the word temple means. I read the passage using "holy dwelling place" instead of temple to point out that it still said it was talking about Jesus' body. She still thought it wasn't Jesus' body. I said again that the temple wasn't the issue and even if the word temple meant "the zoo" the next verse would be saying "the zoo he was speaking of was his body." I don't know if they were scared or mad or frustrated or really completely blinded to this fact, but I got nowhere with them on that. And I think that's why they aren't coming back.
Denna said something about how the Scriptures say GOD will raise Jesus and I said absolutely and that's one of the reasons that I believe Jesus was God. And I also mentioned that in Romans 1:4, there's indication that the Holy Spirit was involved in the resurrection as well. Kathy looked that up and was kind of defensive telling me that verse does not say that the Holy Spirit is God. I said that's not what I was pointing out, just that the verse says the Holy Spirit was also involved in the resurrection.
We talked for a bit about the Holy Spirit because they said something about it being God's active force and not a person and not God. I said you can lie to the Spirit and it's equated with lying to God (Ananias and Sapphira - Acts 5) and that our body is called a temple of God (1 Cor 3:16) and a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19). And how would that make sense if the Holy Spirit isn't part of the Godhead? They responded with the passage about the body of believers being built up into a temple of God. That doesn't even have anything to do with it! So I said yes, so the body of believers is called a temple of God, our individual bodies are called a temple of God, and our individual bodies are called a temple of the Holy Spirit. So how do you reconcile individual bodies being called the temple of God and also of the Holy Spirit? They didn't have an answer. I also pointed out that you can grieve the Holy Spirit and asked how you can grieve a force. Kathe said "Yeah, I'd heard of grieving the Spirit, but not [something else I pointed out but don't remember what, but then we looked it up and saw it was true]." But then she never did answer the question.
They did the thing I was anticipating about the word one being in the neuter where Jesus prays that we may be one... They say that because in the context there it is talking about unity (I said it's about relationship, but unity would be a part of that, yes) that anywhere the word one is used in the neuter it's talking about unity. I tell ya what I got so frustrated trying to explain to them that gender has to do with the gender of a word and not a person. They said when it talks about one in reference to God it uses the masculine. And I said I know - theos is a masculine word. They said well here they didn't use masculine. I was sooo frustrated. That's because it wasn't used in the same way! Grammatically, "one God" is different than "I and the Father are one." I should have explained that one was modifying God in the first case and it was not modifying anything in the second case. I was just so frustrated that I guess I wasn't thinking clearly enough to explain it well. I wish I could go back and explain it. =(
Anyway they had a list of things they were going to look into again, but when they left (Kathy had to go at 2:45 for something) I asked Deena "Same time next week?" And she said "We'll try." Well, I'm pretty sure that means no. =\
I know that salvation is for God alone and I don't need to worry about making them see the truth. At the same time, I desperately want their eyes to be opened! I have cried knowing that they are going to be SO surprised when they find out the truth and that they didn't believe it. I suppose the good is that it spurs me on to pray for them and that is the only thing I can really do with any real effect.
I called our pastor Jeff and talked to him for an hour after they left (thank you so much, Jeff!) about stuff we talked about today and some other random things...
Sorry this is a really long email again. I probably didn't even mention everything we talked about but you can at least know about some of it. I think I mentioned all the big stuff. =P Gonna post it to the blog again, too. Thank you all for emailing me back. I loved getting tons of email. =) =) You can email me again if you want, lol. =)
Love Katie
3.29.2007
JW Meeting 1 Details
It went well! They left with a list of things they needed to look into. It was absolutely invaluable to have a Greek Bible and to know enough to know if their translation of some verses was totally not right. They looked at what version of the Greek Bible I had and actually went silent about it. They didn't actually SAY they agreed that it was legit, but I'm pretty sure they thought so and didn't want to look wrong about their translation.
Would have been awesome to have the Hebrew and know some Hebrew, too. Harp pointed out that we have it on the computer. Too bad I didn't remember that. In Zechariah where Yahweh says that "they will piece Me" their version says will pierce the one I am sending or something like that. Their version definitely doesn't say they'll pierce Jehovah, but Jesus. Ours definitely says Jehovah will be pierced. Anyway there were quite a few issues like that where all we could do was agree that one of the translations is wrong but we really couldn't make any point to each other because we each believe ours is right! So I guess a step in the near future is to talk about the NWT.
I did get them to contradict themselves. I don't remember what the first time was, but I remember thinking "Yeah!!" The second time, they were really stuck. I pointed out that when Thomas saw Jesus, he said "My Lord and my God!" They said he was calling him a god, not Jehovah. I said in the Greek, there is an article for God (mini Greek lesson: they don't have a word for 'a' - that is assumed, unless they use an article, what we'd always translate 'the'). So to translate literally from the Greek, it says "The Lord of me and the God of me!" I said if Jesus was really just a god (a person with power - they point out that Satan is the god of this world, the god of mammon, etc) and he was good, why didn't he rebuke Thomas? Shouldn't he have said "No, I'm just A god, a lesser god. The only one worthy of being called 'the God of me' is Jehovah." She said "Well, he should have!" I said "But he who knows what he should do and does not do it sins." And then it occurred to me that maybe they don't believe Jesus actually lived a sinless life. So I said "OH! Do you believe that Jesus didn't live a sinless life?" And she snapped to it, saying "Yes, we believe Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life." And I pointed out that she just said he didn't do something he should have done, yet didn't sin. And she didn't know what to say. Conveniently, they were having to go to get somewhere else. But I wanted to get one other thing in so I changed the subject to Revelation.
They don't believe Jesus existed forever with God. They believe he was created (citing that he was the firstborn of all creation, which is really about inheritance) and that he was the Archangel Michael before he came to earth. I didn't get on them about the Michael the Archangel thing, but I'm sure we'll head that way soon... =) I tried to stick only to talking about the trinity so they would think about it long enough to maybe see where they are wrong. We talked for nearly two hours, btw.
So in Rev 1:7 it says that Jesus (the one who was pierced) is coming and then in v 8 Jehovah says he (himself) is the One (this is NWT even) who was and is and is coming. I asked then if they believe Jesus is coming and Jehovah is coming based on those two verses. And then asked why Jehovah would say he is "the One" who is coming, if really two are coming. They said well if two people are going to the store together, one can still say they are the one going to the store. I said I wouldn't say that if I was going with someone else and there is no purpose for Jehovah to say "the One" unless he means "the One." Why did he emphasize it? We just disagreed there in the end.
Then in Rev 22, Jehovah says he is coming quickly. Later in 22, when it says I am coming quickly, the response is "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus." I said that Jehovah just said he's coming quickly and the response is acknowledging that he's Jesus. They said well no that then it was actually Jesus speaking and they had hand-written in their Bible "Jesus says, Jehovah says, Jesus says" throughout chapter 22. I pointed out that even in their translation, the translators put the quotations around the whole thing, that it is all one person speaking. They had to go. =P
So anyway there were some other things in the Greek that they wanted to look up because they don't trust my Greek Bible. Which is fine. I don't think they have some corrupted Greek text, just translators with an agenda to corrupt the translation. Not sure about that, but I think all they will find is that I'm right.
I pointed out that being baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit was a strong argument FOR the trinity, although they use it as evidence against it - that they are listed separately, like Tom, Dick, and Harry. I told them in the Greek, name is singular. There is one name of these three distinct personalities. It is indicating plurality within unity. They said name means authority, not a name like Joe. Like stop in the name of the law. Well yeah! And they all have the same singular authority. What they said to argue against me only strengthened my point, but I don't think they got it. I guess I should have stayed on that topic longer and pointed out that there is a plural that could have been used in the Greek and it wasn't used. Just because we don't commonly use a plural in English for authority doesn't mean it wasn't definitely singular the way they wrote it and understood it to be not plural.
There were some things they didn't make a lick of sense on, like how I pointed out that when the NT says theos (God) for Jesus they take it to mean a lesser god but when it says theos for the Father they take it to mean Jehovah. Then they told me how in Genesis, rulers of a land were called Adonai. Um, so? Adonai means mighty ones, if I remember right. What is wrong with that and what does it have to do with theos being taken two different ways? Grr.
I also pointed out to them that nowhere in the Bible does it say "the Father is Jehovah." We only know he is because he's called God and mighty God, etc. By the same virtue we can know Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) because he is called God and mighty God and everlasting, etc. I had a list. =)
Also had a long discussion about Jesus being "a God." They say in John 17:3, where it says "the one true God" it is clear that there is ONE true God (which is true, even to trinitarians, but they are taught falsely that trinitarians believe each the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God (as in the completeness of God) yet they are one God). So I asked if there is one true God and Jesus is "a God" (as they translate John 1:1) then is Jesus a true God or a false God? They said God just means one with power and Jesus has power. And they brought up Satan being a god and money and stuff and I said well those are all false Gods. And they said yes, they are! And I said right, so is Jesus a false God or a true God? And I actually don't remember now where the conversation went from there, but they never did answer the question. That must have been the first time when I thought "Yeah!" but then forgot how they contradicted themselves. That's not an outright contradiction but I know they were stuck and couldn't say he was a true God because they'd contradict John 17:3 unless they admitted Jesus is Yahweh. And if they said he was a false god, then John 1 is wrong in speaking so positively about him (and the rest of the Bible for that matter).
Wow this is a long email. Maybe I'll put it on my blog. =P Their names are Deena (don't know she spells it but that's how you say it) and Nina (pronounced the old-fashioned way, nine-uh). I really like them and we had a very friendly conversation even though we disagreed entirely. I ran into Deena at Walmart a couple hours later and we chatted a little, but not about the Scriptures. Anyway they are coming over next week at the same time and I'm excited!
Emily-girl is asleep on the futon! She must have been tired. I guess I'll go take a shower or something. =P She was such a good girl to sit there for a long time watching the menu after the Esther VeggieTales finished. =P I wonder how long she was awake, hehe. =) Btw, I think it's so cute how Mordecai calls Esther Essie in the VT. I want to name a daughter Esther and call her Essie. =) But I think Harp would say nu uh! And you would probably all be happy and agree with him, lol.
Would have been awesome to have the Hebrew and know some Hebrew, too. Harp pointed out that we have it on the computer. Too bad I didn't remember that. In Zechariah where Yahweh says that "they will piece Me" their version says will pierce the one I am sending or something like that. Their version definitely doesn't say they'll pierce Jehovah, but Jesus. Ours definitely says Jehovah will be pierced. Anyway there were quite a few issues like that where all we could do was agree that one of the translations is wrong but we really couldn't make any point to each other because we each believe ours is right! So I guess a step in the near future is to talk about the NWT.
I did get them to contradict themselves. I don't remember what the first time was, but I remember thinking "Yeah!!" The second time, they were really stuck. I pointed out that when Thomas saw Jesus, he said "My Lord and my God!" They said he was calling him a god, not Jehovah. I said in the Greek, there is an article for God (mini Greek lesson: they don't have a word for 'a' - that is assumed, unless they use an article, what we'd always translate 'the'). So to translate literally from the Greek, it says "The Lord of me and the God of me!" I said if Jesus was really just a god (a person with power - they point out that Satan is the god of this world, the god of mammon, etc) and he was good, why didn't he rebuke Thomas? Shouldn't he have said "No, I'm just A god, a lesser god. The only one worthy of being called 'the God of me' is Jehovah." She said "Well, he should have!" I said "But he who knows what he should do and does not do it sins." And then it occurred to me that maybe they don't believe Jesus actually lived a sinless life. So I said "OH! Do you believe that Jesus didn't live a sinless life?" And she snapped to it, saying "Yes, we believe Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life." And I pointed out that she just said he didn't do something he should have done, yet didn't sin. And she didn't know what to say. Conveniently, they were having to go to get somewhere else. But I wanted to get one other thing in so I changed the subject to Revelation.
They don't believe Jesus existed forever with God. They believe he was created (citing that he was the firstborn of all creation, which is really about inheritance) and that he was the Archangel Michael before he came to earth. I didn't get on them about the Michael the Archangel thing, but I'm sure we'll head that way soon... =) I tried to stick only to talking about the trinity so they would think about it long enough to maybe see where they are wrong. We talked for nearly two hours, btw.
So in Rev 1:7 it says that Jesus (the one who was pierced) is coming and then in v 8 Jehovah says he (himself) is the One (this is NWT even) who was and is and is coming. I asked then if they believe Jesus is coming and Jehovah is coming based on those two verses. And then asked why Jehovah would say he is "the One" who is coming, if really two are coming. They said well if two people are going to the store together, one can still say they are the one going to the store. I said I wouldn't say that if I was going with someone else and there is no purpose for Jehovah to say "the One" unless he means "the One." Why did he emphasize it? We just disagreed there in the end.
Then in Rev 22, Jehovah says he is coming quickly. Later in 22, when it says I am coming quickly, the response is "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus." I said that Jehovah just said he's coming quickly and the response is acknowledging that he's Jesus. They said well no that then it was actually Jesus speaking and they had hand-written in their Bible "Jesus says, Jehovah says, Jesus says" throughout chapter 22. I pointed out that even in their translation, the translators put the quotations around the whole thing, that it is all one person speaking. They had to go. =P
So anyway there were some other things in the Greek that they wanted to look up because they don't trust my Greek Bible. Which is fine. I don't think they have some corrupted Greek text, just translators with an agenda to corrupt the translation. Not sure about that, but I think all they will find is that I'm right.
I pointed out that being baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit was a strong argument FOR the trinity, although they use it as evidence against it - that they are listed separately, like Tom, Dick, and Harry. I told them in the Greek, name is singular. There is one name of these three distinct personalities. It is indicating plurality within unity. They said name means authority, not a name like Joe. Like stop in the name of the law. Well yeah! And they all have the same singular authority. What they said to argue against me only strengthened my point, but I don't think they got it. I guess I should have stayed on that topic longer and pointed out that there is a plural that could have been used in the Greek and it wasn't used. Just because we don't commonly use a plural in English for authority doesn't mean it wasn't definitely singular the way they wrote it and understood it to be not plural.
There were some things they didn't make a lick of sense on, like how I pointed out that when the NT says theos (God) for Jesus they take it to mean a lesser god but when it says theos for the Father they take it to mean Jehovah. Then they told me how in Genesis, rulers of a land were called Adonai. Um, so? Adonai means mighty ones, if I remember right. What is wrong with that and what does it have to do with theos being taken two different ways? Grr.
I also pointed out to them that nowhere in the Bible does it say "the Father is Jehovah." We only know he is because he's called God and mighty God, etc. By the same virtue we can know Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) because he is called God and mighty God and everlasting, etc. I had a list. =)
Also had a long discussion about Jesus being "a God." They say in John 17:3, where it says "the one true God" it is clear that there is ONE true God (which is true, even to trinitarians, but they are taught falsely that trinitarians believe each the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God (as in the completeness of God) yet they are one God). So I asked if there is one true God and Jesus is "a God" (as they translate John 1:1) then is Jesus a true God or a false God? They said God just means one with power and Jesus has power. And they brought up Satan being a god and money and stuff and I said well those are all false Gods. And they said yes, they are! And I said right, so is Jesus a false God or a true God? And I actually don't remember now where the conversation went from there, but they never did answer the question. That must have been the first time when I thought "Yeah!" but then forgot how they contradicted themselves. That's not an outright contradiction but I know they were stuck and couldn't say he was a true God because they'd contradict John 17:3 unless they admitted Jesus is Yahweh. And if they said he was a false god, then John 1 is wrong in speaking so positively about him (and the rest of the Bible for that matter).
Wow this is a long email. Maybe I'll put it on my blog. =P Their names are Deena (don't know she spells it but that's how you say it) and Nina (pronounced the old-fashioned way, nine-uh). I really like them and we had a very friendly conversation even though we disagreed entirely. I ran into Deena at Walmart a couple hours later and we chatted a little, but not about the Scriptures. Anyway they are coming over next week at the same time and I'm excited!
Emily-girl is asleep on the futon! She must have been tired. I guess I'll go take a shower or something. =P She was such a good girl to sit there for a long time watching the menu after the Esther VeggieTales finished. =P I wonder how long she was awake, hehe. =) Btw, I think it's so cute how Mordecai calls Esther Essie in the VT. I want to name a daughter Esther and call her Essie. =) But I think Harp would say nu uh! And you would probably all be happy and agree with him, lol.
3.28.2007
JW Meeting 1
Went well. They left with a list of things they needed to look up and try to figure out. I got them to contradict themselves at least once (and I think twice, but I don't remember what the first one was, lol). They're coming back next week, same time. =) I'll try to blog more later. Might be tomorrow, though, because the girls' study is tonight.
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